Best Tire???

[Ed Who?]

Ok...lets thunderdome this bitch up a bit!

This was brought up on another forum and of course on that one, everyone is afraid to post what they REALLY want to for fear of bashing....well we are not.

Dunlop 209(uk) vs Michelin PP Race (PR-series) vs Pirelli Supercorsa (Diablo)


PERSONALLY i like dunlop's. Here is why

Performance:
Its funny how a few TOP pirelli guys switched to Dunlops for next season even though they cost MORE! Hmm.....wonder why? PERFORMANCE! PERIOD! TOp racers that spend $20k+ do not pick a tire to save $10/set! I know of two top racers that went to pirelli recently and are BEGGING to be back on DUnlops (wish i could record what they say to me) The feedback on the front tire is just UNBEATABLE IMO! THe ONLY issue we had in past was the extreme setup issues/instability. THe new NT has NO SET UP issues/Headshake...NONE! The NT IS however different for the guys that are used to the old style tires. HOwever they never had an issue as it was, so its a moot point. I think PIR has been one track that Pirelli has gotten lucky with due to its very smooth slick surface.....well it was! :D I find it funny that the pirelli guys are saying "we won this...we won that" WTF? WHERE? ONE track...ONE rider. THats about it! When i gave up on the Dunlop tire dist we had about 30% grid fitment in OMRRA and 25% in WMRRA. The new tires are now more $$, but yet the grids for omrra are now OVER 45% dunlop and OVER 55% for WMRRA..... PERFORMANCE and SERVICE! (see below)

PRICE:
I want to support my buddy Barry. Even thou i can buy the others cheaper i know my extra what? $10-20 goes to someone that CARES about this sport! NOT just his wallet/image! I mean almost EVERY race weekend/trackday barry and his crew have free beers and stay later to hang out and b/s with everyone. This to me means a lot! Also, i love that Barry raced on them and KNOWS how to set them up for our riders. He has never ever told me (nor have i heard him say) "I cant do that right now" Or "im too busy" You cannot put a price on that! The way i look at it if i as a race team owner (our 07 R6 superbike) we bought about 18sets of tires. Now i paid regular price like the other top riders, but i know what i could have got Pirelli's for and it cost me a total of $271 for the year. $271 for the YEAR! and thats EIGHT TEEN SETS! So an avg racer might use 10 sets, and what? maybe a $100 more a year for a local guy that is passionate, supportive and chubby that always helps, is ALWAYS the first there at the track and ALWAYS there last AND always has a free enery drink for day and beer at night? Simple answer for me!!


Supply:
Pirelli has this one won. Its Dunlop NA's fault 100% IMO. I personally believe since i was the dist for 6+yrs that Dunlop NA does not simply import enough of them for one, and two other "Dist" for them hold too many tires. Obviously AMA is #1 goal for them, cant blame them but then you get a lot of tires that get held for that organization. I think you'll see a HUGE improvement from Dunlop in 2008 because of the BSB and MotoGP withdrawl.


NOW...dont be a pussy either way....i dont care, i know what i like and the above is why...lets hear what and why you do or do not agree? I hope barry doesnt get upset with this thread...but im tired of the guys saying pirelli are better...THEY AREN'T!


:D

[Syrythius]

i like men with long hair

[SpLiZaaT]

I prefer a good male back rub

[Ed Who?]

both you fuckers have been edited....stay on topic on this one please!

[flyingbutterknife]

I agree with you word for word Dorn.! I was tempted years ago to switch to pirelli due to a lesser price and lighter weight tire but chose to stick with Dunlops due to the E.D.R. crew always there to help and answer questions and swing some deals here and there,now Barry has picked up where you guys left off and then some. I have had Bridgestone offers and michelin offers but am holding firm on Dunlops and K.F.G. Both have never once let me down. Last season i was getting 4 heat races on 1 set of NT Dunlops at a competitive speed and they held up lap after lap!

[flyingbutterknife]

Me and Randy Haywood would go out and see how long we could ride the new Dunlops until they were shot and we were both shocked that after 90 laps of battling each other and setting a pretty brisk pace on Sullies track days that the NTs held full grip until both sides were bald on the rear.....90 laps! And the front still had meat to spare!
Sam Verderico #455 A.F.M.
W.S.M.C.
U.S.B.A.
W.M.R.R.A.........DUNLOP RACER!!!!!!!

[Ed Who?]

butterknife..THATS the feedback i want....Hell...i would love to hear that from Pirelli or Michelin guys too..honestly lets get some REAL racer feedback on this topic!!

[Chunke1]

After 2 years, 2 different bikes and both Pirelli and Dunlop, I'm now a Dunlop guy from here on out. Here's Why:

First time out on the ol' ZX-6 was with a set of Pirellis. I barely knew how to ride a bike let alone tell the difference in tires. They were black, round and cheap. Good times.

At the end of the season, Eric kept telling me to give Dunlops a try because of how much longer they lasted and how much better feel they gave. Others told me about all of the setup issues they had with Dunlops and to expect headshake. Kind of scary for a new guy just trying to get faster. Pirellis worked so why switch? Besides, why listen to such a grumpy guy??? :1245:

Beginning of last season, the new NTs were coming out claiming to eliminate the setup issues of the old 209s. OK, I'v got 2 sets of Pirellis left to run and then time to give Dunlops a try. Barry didn't care that I had Pirellis and got my setup working great. Once I was ready for a set of Dunlops, he would hook me up.

3rd Race weekend (first dry one last season) during the morning warmups, on my last set of Pirellis, I pushed the front in 1b and binned it bad. It wasn't the tire's fault, more of me pushing to hard. However, I kept noticing things about the Pirellis that I didn't like prior to that.

Back on the old ZX-6 with a set of Dunlop NTs. First thing I noticed was ALOT more feedback coming from the front and rear tires. I really like that, on my bike and in my car. Second thing, the wear was much better on both front and back. With the Pirellis, I would tear the front constantly even with the hard compound. From what I was told, it was just my riding style. Third thing, grip was always consistant and predictable. With the Pirellis, by the 4 or 5th lap, the rear would start to slide a bit. Fouth, Barry has been straight with me (same with Josh and Chuck) which is a big factor.

Price wise, yes the Dunlops are more expensive but I like them meaning I am willing to pay more. If Pirelli and Dunlop provided "exactly" the same performance then price would be a much bigger factor.

So from here on out, Dunlops for me. I prefer them over Pirelli and willing to pay more for it.

:1118:

[Hypnotiq]

When I started racing, I talked to my friend and mentor. He was running Pirelli's, so I figured I'd start there. I've never had a problem with them, so I haven't felt the need to switch.

I've never crashed because of my tires. I've always felt the feedback I've got from the Pirelli's are great and on the new SC's, I've turned out 200 laps on a set without any issues (yes, I'm slower than the fast guys so this may be different for them). I've always operated under the notion, if it ain't broke don't mess with it. Tire grip isn't keeping me from going faster. Waiting for the other one to drop is. :)

Barry is a great guy and always taken care of me for suspension, so it has nothing to do with him. I just haven't felt the need to switch. I haven't "tried" the other tires for a couple reasons. One, I didn't have the time last season to go out and screw around for a day getting my bike setup for a different tire brand when everything was already working well for me. The other thing I've "heard" and I dont know if it's true is with the NT tires is that you may not get the "same" set everytime, so you may have to change your setup. Barry or Dorn can probably answer that best.

I told Barry that I'd spend a track day out on a set of Dunlops and see what I think. I guess time will tell if I stay on Pirelli's or move to Dunlops.

[EmDee]

I thinks its hard to say what is the best tire, until you get your bike setup for each brand, then can you only really compare and find out what works best for you. Setup is so key, that until you get it right, its not really the "tires" so much as it is geometry and suspension changes to bring out the best of each tire.

That being said, I have raced on Pirelli, Dunlop, & Michelin and have found all 3 to be quite good. I've been on Michelin for the last 4 years and Dunlop 2 years prior to that. With tire technology changing so much over that period, my experience is really only valid for the Michelins. I love the PRC Michelin front. Built to mimic a 16.5" profile, I love how it feels once into a turn. The triangulated profile works with my style and I prefer the edgy feel it has compared to the standard race fronts Michelin offers. My only complaint is that at limits, it doesn't give much warning. I had one front let go this year in Spokane, that gave me no warning and I was down for what seemed like no reason. Very frustrating, but talking with a few other Michelin guys, they have experienced the same. The 17" Soft 190/55 rears are the bomb. I love them and have never had a grip issue what so ever. I can get 1 heavy track day out of them and another 1/2 a day if I flip the rear too. I've even raced on flipped rears and run same times as standard mount, so that's confidence inspiring. However, the 16.5" rears are just not soft enough for the NW. It took me 5 laps at Spokane this year to get enough heat in the rear to where it wasn't stepping out on me coming out of T2 and T4. Very frustrating. I hear the AFM Michelin guys don't have that problem, so perhaps their higher track temps work better for the 16.5". Michelin only makes two rear compounds available in the US for the 16.5", which is part of the problem. Overall, I've been very pleased with the 17" rubber and if I could get more feedback at full lean from the front, I don't think I'd have a single complaint.

Michelin motard tires flat out rock too. Motarding in general lets you get away with what seems like Murder in comparison to Road Racing. I never once had a problem with tires or grip while Motarding. They stuck like friggin glue, gave me all kinds of good feedback, and no matter how hard I tried, I never got the back to step out or spin up on dry clean pavement. Dirty pavement of course is another story! ;) So if you motard, I wouldn't second guess the Michelins for that.

I did ride my friends GSXR1000 with Barry's loving done to the suspension on the Dunlop NT's this last summer. I didn't push his bike like I would mine, but grip wise they were great. It just felt like I was on a friggin jack hammer, which may have been a setup issue more than a tire issue. It just felt to me like I felt every single ripple in the pavement, which I don't care for. However, I am very much looking forward to trying a set of the NT's out this spring to see if I can get them to work on my bike and not be so friggin "hard" and do a back to back comparison with the Michelins.

Like Eric said above, some of us put too much time and effort into this sport to worry about a few $$$ here and there for tire costs. I want to be on the best friggin tire for me that produces the fastest most consistent laps and I don't really care whose name is on the side of the rubber, if it accomplishes that for me. So I'll probably never be one of those guys to argue till I'm blue in the face about who has the best tires. All 4 companies (adding Bridgestone) make a damn fine race tire and its hard to say who has the best. Plus add technological advances each year and one year it might be one or the other.

Dunlop has the largest NW % of riders, so some say they are the best. Pirelli has lap records at PR & SRP (maybe PIR, I'm not sure), so some say they are the best. Michelin doesn't have much to brag about in American Road Racing and they should step up to the plate to prove they are the best! So who is the best? Ahh, the million dollar question! If you can afford to, try them all out and give each a fair shot with good bike setup and a lap timer. Its my opinion that only then can you figure out what works for you, your bike, likes, style and ultimately lap times.

[Ed Who?]

EmDee nice! thanks...good feedback from a TOP FAST Michelin guy! For record pirelli only got the TR this season cause 1. Ross is freakin FAST! 2. His bikes aint slow and 3. PR changed the track. My furry little friend mr. lippis is taking it back in 2008...but then again i hear there is a VERY fast CBR1000RR being built for you at EDR right now too :D

[Ed Kok]

I am very slow. But I am earnest. I started out on dunlops in wmrra. i really liked joking around with eric and ben in those days so i never even considered other tires.
at the end of 06 i blew up my sv engine and tried to race an 06 gixxer. i couldn't get rid of a head shake with dunlops on the gsxr, even with a great deal of help from barry. this lasted until june of 07. i switched to pirellis and they worked right. plenty of grip at my speeds and no head shake. then decided i sucked too much to race.
i think i will race toward the end of this year and ill go back to dunlop if the nt works to get rid of the whatever it was that plagued me.
i think the tires must work great, plenty of guys way faster than me use them with no apparent problems.
but that is my story.
warm regards
ed

[dinolee]

I'm a grad novice in WMRRA, not very fast, and I'm racing for the enjoyment rather then a future career. My only experience has been on Michelins, on my 01 gixxer 600. I'm still learning what goes into the assessment of how well a tire is working for me. I guess if I finish the heat upright, then it must have worked out.

Having said that, I stick with Michelins because of the help and support I've received from Rick and Michael at SBMotorsports. As a novice, they helped me learn the basics of understanding the feedback my tires are giving me on track. Also, showing me what my bad habits are doing to the tires, and what I need to do to correct it.

As my racing progresses, I'll definitely try out other brands and setups, but service and support will be a big factor in my choosing.

[EmDee]

This isn't meant as a bash and please correct me if I'm wrong. I think the real problems with the non NT Dunlops is that they didn't have a kevlar band down the middle to keep them from growing at high speed like the Michelins and Pirellis had built into them. Thus the rears would grow a lot, from what I heard about 20mm or 1", thus really messing with geometry. Now the Dunlop NT's have the Kevlar band (along with other newer technology) in them, that hasn't become an issue. From what I heard, it never was a grip problem with the Dunlops, but it was the headshake issues caused from tires growing at speed due to inertia, thus changing the bikes effective geometry.

[Ed Who?]

emdee...yes. in theory. The old dunlops were 'Cut Ply' not "JBL" (jointless belt) The reason was dunlop believed the cut ply offered more grip off corner and stability at max lean when power is applied. However the hp and speeds nowadays and the radical oem geometery made setup hard. If you ride on a NT you get that Pirelli/Michelin like "wiggle" at max lean when hp is applied....its a give take for both designs.

[ZRX David]

Not a racer but Donlop holds up to a lot of hard rideing. I have run old race dunlops and now run Dunlop Qualifiires great tire. Thanks to Eric

[AdamBowen]

I have ridden Michelin, Pirelli, Bridgestone, Metzler, Avon, and Dunlop. I really liked Michelins..basically everything EMDee said holds true for myself. Pirelli's I didn't like so much. Didn't last, and the tire seemed to go away really fast and move around too much. The other brands I only ran on the street. All really good tires in their own repsect. Some like their tires to move around like the Pirelli's and some like a more planted feel like the Dunlops. When I first started on the track I was on Michelins...I made the switch to Dunlops to see what another tire would be like. I started out on 208's and I am now running NT Slicks. Took about a half day of suspension setup to sort out some issues (wabble). #1. I like how NT Dunnies perform..across the board. They wear good (as long as you are tracking hot/cold temps) and offer what seems like endless amounts of traction. #2. And this is a big one...The Support provided by Barry is Second to None!!! I watch as Barry is being pulled in a thousand different directions and he is never too busy for anyone. From the Novice guys to Sully and Eli, he is just simply there for everybody! No matter what tire brand you are on. That there was enough for me. Not to mention the availability after hours. I bust tires for Barry and Barry, Butters, and myself have been out as late 10pm at Spokane getting everyones tires done for the next day. And after that Barry will drink with you all night long..you have to make him leave so you can get some sleep yourself!! (I feel his late night shenanigans at the track afterhours may decrease a bit if he does actually race again.)

So, in closing...There is a tire out there for everybody, you just have to find what works for you...but there is no other support like KFG/Dunlop!!!

[pbu]

Great thread! My 2 cents...

The Pirelli Supercorsas used to be my favorite race tire until I tried ntecs. I like the feel of the pirelli (zero radius belt) and it seemed easy to setup with various geometry settings to get the tire working for me.

This year I tried ntecs... I wasn't overly impressed with dunlops older 208s dot races (ran fast times but prefered feel of pirellis) but didn't have much to lose, so I thought go for it.

For me, laptimes are the true test and dunlop helps me run my personal bests for longer periods of time as the grip lasts longer (area under the curve). The support from Barry obviously goes a super long way... What was that wise saying??? "knowledge is speed..."

The biggest characteristic I noticed about the ntec was the superior drive grip. Sure you give up stability and they are a bit finicky to get just perfect. BUT when its right... life is good!!!!

[Ed Who?]

Pirelli: "Fold n Hold"


Michelin: "Grip...grip...SHIT!...SLIPPP"

Dunlop: "Grip it and Fucking RIP IT!"

yeahhhh buddy! Dunlop Race tires are the best!!!

[Barry Wressell]

Thanks for the compliments!! I really try to do my best to help you guys out, and will continue to do so in 2008! I believe the Dunlops are the best, might be a tad bias :) I have ridden Dunlops, Michelin and Pirelli. I won the #2 plate with Michelin and then went to Dunlop the next season. I felt they were a better tire and Eric got me hooked up. It took me a few trackdays to get used to the new tire (to me) and fell in love! I set personal best lap times and I was winning races.

I actually tried out the new Pirelli DOT's over Spokane and thought they worked pretty damn good, just did not like the movement when getting on the gas. It felt like the tire was not up to temp and was sliding/gripping sort of thing. I pulled of the track and immediately checked the hot pressures and they were spot on. Dunlops don't move around and that front tire is awesome! I can't wait to try out the new 211GP DOT! Heard great things about it.

I think I have about 1000 laps around Thunder Hill, so hopefully I can pass Lippis/Wilson at least once......I better get to the gym! :1028:

Not sure why we have to threads on this subject?

[Barry Wressell]

Pirelli: "Fold n Hold"


Michelin: "Grip...grip...SHIT!...SLIPPP"

Dunlop: "Grip it and Fucking RIP IT!"

yeahhhh buddy! Dunlop Race tires are the best!!!

You forgot about Bridgestone again! Now think of something dammit!!

[Ed Who?]

Bridgestone "Why Yes, a rock IS softer than our tires"

[Barry Wressell]

That's better, I like it, nice work :cool2:

[mtobin]

Well I rode Michelin for my first several years with the club and really enjoyed but I had a couple of front end tucks that caught me out. Michael and Rick are great to work with and I learned alot.
I then tried the Pirellis and I found under heavy braking the front felt like it was flat and I did not like that feel. Mid corner these tires have alot of grip as the sidewall flex I believe but on exit again alot of movement. I did not enjoy the movement on the exit or the entrance this however is feedback and not the latest generation of tires.
Dunlop experience at first was very hard for me as I struggled with set up and head shake. Barry stood by me the whole time as I made the transition. The real experience was the learning curve of what was happening with the bike the tires and my riding. I stuck it out and I have improved my knowledge my skill and my confidence. These tires are amazing anybody who saw some of my antics with wmrra can atest to the quality of th Dunlop fronts and the rear has gotten better and better.
The support and knowledge of the dunlop team has also improved my ability to make some better decisions about what to run and when to run it. Again I am no fast guy but I FRGGIN LOVE THE DUNLOPS AND THE KFG SQUAD!!!!!!

[Fly'n Brian]

Well I have done a number of track days at PIR on Michelin (obviously I am not a fast guy) However, one thing I love about the Michelins is their predictability. If the tire is going to spin up I know where and why. Another thing is the new Michelins seem to warm up very quick. I don't think they offer as much feed back as some of the other brands. But honestly, there is no other brand that I have tried that consistently makes me feel safe pushing personal limits on the track or the street. So, I would say that is probably the only bad thing really about the Michelins is not as much feedback to the rider. With maybe the exception of the Michelin Race H2's I swear to god on those I could feel every bump and ripple in the track but they took forever to come up to temp.

The bottom line I really think is you are gonna go fastest on whatever brand gives you warm fuzzies on the bike. Because, who gives a shit about theoretical grip limits when the rider is scared to push the tire to those limits. If the rider feels good about the tire and bike he is going to go faster every time.