How i'd fix the economy!

[Ed Who?]

VERY simple few steps if i could.... REALLY wanna hear what you guys think..come on grow a pair and HAVE/POST your thoughts even if no one agrees! I'd love to hear from guys that work at the BIG companies (you know who you are) or guys that run other small businesses.

1. SHUT the news down! PERIOD. They cannot comment on ANYTHING bank, mortgage, employement, stocks, etc AT ALL. Especially Fox News IMO the news is making things 10 x's worse!

2. Tell every American "STFU and DO WORK!" Seriously if EVERYONE in the US..i mean EVERYONE from CEO's to Farm Hands would just STFU and DO their jobs and do them to the best they can. DO NOT cry, DO NOT bitch about wages or needing this or that right now, just DO YOUR JOB!

3. Banks: DO not fxxxking lend jerk offs with sub 600 beacon scores ANY LOANS! Make ppl get their shit together first and pay off what htey have now! Increase the benefits of keeping CASH IN YOUR BANK instead of volitile markets. You know that thing called SAVINGS that most americans don't do? THen the banks have the cash reserves to survive.

4. Fed. LEAVE THE GODDAMN RATE ALONE! STOP the rollar coaster of up down...down..down..now up..up...etc.

5. The CEO's of the places like Fanny Mae, Freddie Mac, Lehman, etc get ZERO salary bonuses...."Your company went broke? too bad YOU did it or did not help it from happening...here's a slap on your ass and a good luck with next job"

6. The war: GET THE FXCK OUT NOW..not 6 month...NOW. Send over a bunch of big goddamn ships, planes canoes, whatever. GET EVERYONE OUT OF IRAQ NOW! LEAVE PEOPLE ALONE! If their economy fails, it fails. STOP forcing US goddamn democracy down everyones throats! There has been EVERY type of economy/political form since day one and always will be! Seriously, i am SOOOO grateful for those over there defending MY country but i HATE that we loose even 1 guy/gal due to a bunch of BULLSHIT ALL ABOUT MONEY AND POWER AND GREED! How much money will that save? All those Military folks can come back home and lets MAKE JOBS that we can become another powerhouse

7. China. STOP GODDAMN BORROWING FROM THEM! How the hell is that gonna end? United States of China! Call me a tin foil hat wearer, but we ain't far from it! ADD TAXES TO CHINESE IMPORTS! Stop having companies STEAL our patents, make Pit bull like stands out of shit for 1/4 the price.


Sorry, if wrong. just my $.02 and wanna see some REAL smart guys like DPW, EmDee, Pat13, hell lets even see what DHoush and Speed have to say..lol


FLAME ON!! ONLY ON THE IDEAS NOT THE PERSON PLEASE

[EmDee]

Friendly discourse . . .

1. SHUT the news down! PERIOD. They cannot comment on ANYTHING bank, mortgage, employement, stocks, etc AT ALL. Especially Fox News IMO the news is making things 10 x's worse!

I hear ya on your reasons for this, but that's not the right answer. That's a socialistic/communistic approach. We HAVE to have a free press. The problem is that the current major media are no longer objective reporters, they have become political hacks that are trying too hard to advance a liberal agenda, and have pretty much become propagandists. They are so ingrained in this, they can't even tell themselves. I'm suprised you chose FOX as your one you called out. They lean to the right, but suffer from the same blindness that the others suffer from. If you impose your desire to shut down all news/media then the government wins and we are in a worse situation. The major media outlets are loosing market share every year to other sources on the internet and radio. A free market and press will allow for these alternative news outlets to continue to grow. Americans aren't dumb as a whole and are now shopping for other outlets to get their news. Keep the free press and keep it going. Just realize what the news has become. The whole role of a free press is to scrutinize government and I don't think hey are doing their job. Quite frankly, I don't listen to the news much, its mostly doom and gloom. I read a few sites on the internet and listen on radio that come from a similar viewpoint as my own, but even that isn't every day.

2. Tell every American "STFU and DO WORK!" Seriously if EVERYONE in the US..i mean EVERYONE from CEO's to Farm Hands would just STFU and DO their jobs and do them to the best they can. DO NOT cry, DO NOT bitch about wages or needing this or that right now, just DO YOUR JOB!

ROFL - no kidding. Tell them, I'd love to hear Bush or any current President get up on the podium and call all the whiners a bunch of spoiled brats and to go home, quite their complaining and get their butts to work. I'll go one further from you Eric and help those lazy ass people back to work. I think the Government should quit funding all welfare for a month...period! You wanna talk about people getting the picture real quick! Hey man, hunger is a great motivator to get off your butt and go to work. Let a few people go hungry for a bit and maybe they'll get off their asses and go do somethin.

3. Banks: DO not fxxxking lend jerk offs with sub 600 beacon scores ANY LOANS! Make ppl get their shit together first and pay off what htey have now! Increase the benefits of keeping CASH IN YOUR BANK instead of volitile markets. You know that thing called SAVINGS that most americans don't do? THen the banks have the cash reserves to survive.

Agreed, but its not only the banks fault, its the government loose regulatory practices that allowed the federal reserve to give the banks the money in the first place. Not only are the banks at fault, but many government beauracrats are too. I think the only way to fix this is to get an outside Private industry company that gets paid to find faults in all of this. Not paper faults, I'm talking action faults, where people are actually breaking these regulatory laws and/or are making them way to loose.

4. Fed. LEAVE THE GODDAMN RATE ALONE! STOP the rollar coaster of up down...down..down..now up..up...etc.

I'm torn on this one. While I wish they didn't screw with it as much as they did, it does need to be adjusted accordingly. Heck I was just a kid in the 70's when inflation went nuts for a while and interest rates skyrocketed, but there's a classic example when rates should be adjusted to keep inflation from doing that kind of run.

5. The CEO's of the places like Fanny Mae, Freddie Mac, Lehman, etc get ZERO salary bonuses...."Your company went broke? too bad YOU did it or did not help it from happening...here's a slap on your ass and a good luck with next job"

Heck that ain't enough...those sum-bitches should be brought up on embezzlement charges or something similar. Especially the ones at Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac. What a nice world to live in...quasi government/private company. Gets all the benefits of profits of the private industry with all of the risks pawned off on tax payers, with oversight done by congressional leaders that are paid by Freddy Mac and Fannie Mae through lobbists. Gee doesn't that sound like the recipie for corruption? Bring em up on charges on top of firing their asses. Bernie Ebbers went to jail for cooking the books...why shouldn't all of these CEO's?

6. The war: GET THE FXCK OUT NOW..not 6 month...NOW. Send over a bunch of big goddamn ships, planes canoes, whatever. GET EVERYONE OUT OF IRAQ NOW! LEAVE PEOPLE ALONE! If their economy fails, it fails. STOP forcing US goddamn democracy down everyones throats! There has been EVERY type of economy/political form since day one and always will be! Seriously, i am SOOOO grateful for those over there defending MY country but i HATE that we loose even 1 guy/gal due to a bunch of BULLSHIT ALL ABOUT MONEY AND POWER AND GREED! How much money will that save? All those Military folks can come back home and lets MAKE JOBS that we can become another powerhouse.

Sorry, don't agree here with you Eric. While I certainly don't want the war to go on anymore, we are there and must deal with the current sitation. Iran is the real unkown now and having a base and deomocratic government in Iraq is key to helping us have a local eye on them that is stable. We still have bases all over Europe from WWII. The Iraq war will be no different. Once stability in Iraq is reached, some will come home, but we'll always have a base there and I'm in support of it.

7. China. STOP GODDAMN BORROWING FROM THEM! How the hell is that gonna end? United States of China! Call me a tin foil hat wearer, but we ain't far from it! ADD TAXES TO CHINESE IMPORTS! Stop having companies STEAL our patents, make Pit bull like stands out of shit for 1/4 the price.

No arguement here. You're spot on! I will never buy a Powerstand product and actively rip them anytime I can and anyone who uses them for that exact reason. We are slowly selling ourselves to the Chinese and that ain't good.

Good post, I look forward to reading others responses and ideas...

[Housh]

Even though I wasn't on your "smart" list I will reply anyway.

I agree you, well written couldn't and probably wouldn't have said it better myself. Right On!

[EmDee]

Eric...word is out about your platform...

http://www.tsgnet.com/pres.php?id=370617&altf=Fsjd&altl=3Zpeb31Epso

[Ed Kok]

Screw warren buffet and the woman from ebay. Eric Dorn for secretary of treasury and chairman of the fed. When you're done with this problem later today i would like to buy you a beer. We can discuss what we will really learn from the super collider. I'll get to Portland, you stay put. ;-)
I have no clue what to do with the economy. I plan to stay invested in the market. But its really painful.
Guess i will be working until I forget to put pants on before I show up at the office.

[Hypnotiq]

2. Tell every American "STFU and DO WORK!" Seriously if EVERYONE in the US..i mean EVERYONE from CEO's to Farm Hands would just STFU and DO their jobs and do them to the best they can. DO NOT cry, DO NOT bitch about wages or needing this or that right now, just DO YOUR JOB!

ROFL - no kidding. Tell them, I'd love to hear Bush or any current President get up on the podium and call all the whiners a bunch of spoiled brats and to go home, quite their complaining and get their butts to work. I'll go one further from you Eric and help those lazy ass people back to work. I think the Government should quit funding all welfare for a month...period! You wanna talk about people getting the picture real quick! Hey man, hunger is a great motivator to get off your butt and go to work. Let a few people go hungry for a bit and maybe they'll get off their asses and go do somethin.


+100


3. Banks: DO not fxxxking lend jerk offs with sub 600 beacon scores ANY LOANS! Make ppl get their shit together first and pay off what htey have now! Increase the benefits of keeping CASH IN YOUR BANK instead of volitile markets. You know that thing called SAVINGS that most americans don't do? THen the banks have the cash reserves to survive.

Agreed, but its not only the banks fault, its the government loose regulatory practices that allowed the federal reserve to give the banks the money in the first place. Not only are the banks at fault, but many government beauracrats are too. I think the only way to fix this is to get an outside Private industry company that gets paid to find faults in all of this. Not paper faults, I'm talking action faults, where people are actually breaking these regulatory laws and/or are making them way to loose.


+1


6. The war: GET THE FXCK OUT NOW..not 6 month...NOW. Send over a bunch of big goddamn ships, planes canoes, whatever. GET EVERYONE OUT OF IRAQ NOW! LEAVE PEOPLE ALONE! If their economy fails, it fails. STOP forcing US goddamn democracy down everyones throats! There has been EVERY type of economy/political form since day one and always will be! Seriously, i am SOOOO grateful for those over there defending MY country but i HATE that we loose even 1 guy/gal due to a bunch of BULLSHIT ALL ABOUT MONEY AND POWER AND GREED! How much money will that save? All those Military folks can come back home and lets MAKE JOBS that we can become another powerhouse.

Sorry, don't agree here with you Eric. While I certainly don't want the war to go on anymore, we are there and must deal with the current sitation. Iran is the real unkown now and having a base and deomocratic government in Iraq is key to helping us have a local eye on them that is stable. We still have bases all over Europe from WWII. The Iraq war will be no different. Once stability in Iraq is reached, some will come home, but we'll always have a base there and I'm in support of it.

1000000000000000% agree here.

[jkaiser]

Ed Who?;13358]VERY simple few steps if i could.... REALLY wanna hear what you guys think..come on grow a pair and HAVE/POST your thoughts even if no one agrees! I'd love to hear from guys that work at the BIG companies (you know who you are) or guys that run other small businesses.

1. SHUT the news down! PERIOD. They cannot comment on ANYTHING bank, mortgage, employement, stocks, etc AT ALL. Especially Fox News IMO the news is making things 10 x's worse!

The press is an issue though we cannot and should not shut them down. I'd love to make them more responsible for their reporting if we could find a good way to do it. If I stand on a street corner and say the sky is falling, who cares? But If NBC reports the same thing, that's a different matter. The press need to be held accountable for news they report.

2. Tell every American "STFU and DO WORK!" Seriously if EVERYONE in the US..i mean EVERYONE from CEO's to Farm Hands would just STFU and DO their jobs and do them to the best they can. DO NOT cry, DO NOT bitch about wages or needing this or that right now, just DO YOUR JOB!

Seriously, EmDee wonders how the US public might react to a president telling them to get off their asses and get to work. Jimmy Carter tried this and it was a torpedo for his reelection campaign. I agree completely that people need to stop their whining and get to work. I think the recent stock market performance is only a problem for anyone who wasn't planning on working for a living. But in this economy it turns out that people will only pay you money if you actually do something productive. When times are plenty, anyone can make good money. But when times get tight people are a lot more choosy about where they spend their dollars. I don't see EDR Performance suffering for a lack of work to do. In my industry (Marine service and repair) I've seen a dozen companies go bankrupt this year but I've got just as much work as last year, go figure.

3. Banks: DO not fxxxking lend jerk offs with sub 600 beacon scores ANY LOANS! Make ppl get their shit together first and pay off what htey have now! Increase the benefits of keeping CASH IN YOUR BANK instead of volitile markets. You know that thing called SAVINGS that most americans don't do? THen the banks have the cash reserves to survive.

I say let 'em fail. We're not talking about all banks, just some of them. There are plenty of big banks that are not in trouble because they made good business decisions. This is a capitalist market and they should be rewarded for making better decisions than their competition. I'd be pretty pissed if the Feds came in and bailed out all the marine service companies that have gone BK. They loose, I win. That's how the system works and the system should affect big banks just as well. Any time the government steps in to circumvent market forces it tends to end poorly, for industry or tax payers or both.

4. Fed. LEAVE THE GODDAMN RATE ALONE! STOP the rollar coaster of up down...down..down..now up..up...etc.

The government needs to go back to the gold standard. The gold standard, in a nut shell, says that the feds cannot spend more money than they have. Right now the government can spend all the money they want and leave us to pick up the tab. This needs to end. With the value of the US$ going the way of the peso, we cannot afford to have our currency diluted any further. What's the down side? If the government makes bad financial decisions, we all feel the pain. This is how it should be. If we feel pain then we elect new leaders who utilize sound fiscal policy. Right now we are so anesthesized to our leaders financial blunders (by way of the Fed reserve) that we barely feel the effects. Under current policy, we won't really feel the pain of over spending until the wheels are coming off the wagon (anyone seen the stock market lately).

5. The CEO's of the places like Fanny Mae, Freddie Mac, Lehman, etc get ZERO salary bonuses...."Your company went broke? too bad YOU did it or did not help it from happening...here's a slap on your ass and a good luck with next job"

Again, let 'em fail. If a company is stupid enough to pay a person millions of dollars to run them into bankruptcy then they won't be around long. It just creates opportunity for the companies that choose more wisely.

6. The war: GET THE FXCK OUT NOW..not 6 month...NOW. Send over a bunch of big goddamn ships, planes canoes, whatever. GET EVERYONE OUT OF IRAQ NOW! LEAVE PEOPLE ALONE! If their economy fails, it fails. STOP forcing US goddamn democracy down everyones throats! There has been EVERY type of economy/political form since day one and always will be! Seriously, i am SOOOO grateful for those over there defending MY country but i HATE that we loose even 1 guy/gal due to a bunch of BULLSHIT ALL ABOUT MONEY AND POWER AND GREED! How much money will that save? All those Military folks can come back home and lets MAKE JOBS that we can become another powerhouse

Everyone wants to define success in Iraq by how soon the troops come home. But I tell you this, if we are successful in Iraq the troops will NEVER come home. The character of their service there will change but if anything we will increase the number of troops in Iraq. Think of Japan, we have 300,000 troops in Japan RIGHT NOW. Is anyone complaining about troops in Japan? No because we like Japan, we see Japan as an ally, and the US benefits from having a large US military presence in Asia. If we are successful in Iraq, we will shape the character of Iraq and it's government to benefit us in the same way, but it will take time. We defeated Japan in 1945, but we held onto Okinawa until 1972. Almost 30 years folks. We're a better military now and a better country so I'd expect things to go faster, but still 10 - 20 years minimum.

7. China. STOP GODDAMN BORROWING FROM THEM! How the hell is that gonna end? United States of China! Call me a tin foil hat wearer, but we ain't far from it! ADD TAXES TO CHINESE IMPORTS! Stop having companies STEAL our patents, make Pit bull like stands out of shit for 1/4 the price.

China is to the US what credit card companies are to college students. We have got to stop looking at the short term gain of cheap disposable products and start looking at the long term repercussions of financial dependency on another country (especially a communist one). China is in a position RIGHT NOW to bankrupt this country and from a national security position we cannot allow this to continue. I think the US needs to start viewing China as a market WE can sell to and do a better job of demanding access to those markets. Right now the money flow is all one way.

Sorry, if wrong. just my $.02 and wanna see some REAL smart guys like DPW, EmDee, Pat13, hell lets even see what DHoush and Speed have to say..lol


FLAME ON!! ONLY ON THE IDEAS NOT THE PERSON PLEASE

[LauraLynne]

I agree with what everyone's said for the most part - I would just add more personal responsibilty down to the lowest level. Bankruptcy? Eff That. You racked up debt - you PAY it. now we're looking at bankruptcy on a national level. People who did NOT research their loans, did NOT consider the long term implications of ARM's and intrest only loans. From what I'm reading and what the gov't is suggesting, they're getting off scott free. The banks should be punished for offering shitty loans but for crying out loud - do your damn research. Be an informed consumer. Among all this shoddy loans, we still managed to find a house within our means (and commute - ugh) and a loan that we can afford. We stayed within a budget. We used common sense. We refused several loans that were "too good to be true" and as a result, we will weather the storm. for what? To end up in the exact same - if not worse - position than people who didn't do the same homework, use common sense or just ingnored their better judgement. What reward do I have for being an intelligent consumer? Nothing.

Eric Dorn for president - as long as you don't pick a bimbo as VP.

(apparently I'm in a ranting mood - I'd better not have to talk to anyone important at work today - I'm likely to get fired)

[EmDee]

posted by JKaiser
4. Fed. LEAVE THE GODDAMN RATE ALONE! STOP the rollar coaster of up down...down..down..now up..up...etc.

The government needs to go back to the gold standard. The gold standard, in a nut shell, says that the feds cannot spend more money than they have. Right now the government can spend all the money they want and leave us to pick up the tab. This needs to end. With the value of the US$ going the way of the peso, we cannot afford to have our currency diluted any further. What's the down side? If the government makes bad financial decisions, we all feel the pain. This is how it should be. If we feel pain then we elect new leaders who utilize sound fiscal policy. Right now we are so anesthesized to our leaders financial blunders (by way of the Fed reserve) that we barely feel the effects. Under current policy, we won't really feel the pain of over spending until the wheels are coming off the wagon (anyone seen the stock market lately).

You can say that again! Excellent point! I fear we may have gone to far to ever return to it, but I agree its where we need to go without a doubt!

[Ed Kok]

Not that it really matters much to me because i favor reducing the national debt, (who doesn't? it like gravity is just a good idea) but i don't think what you describe can be fairly referred to as the "gold standard". The gold standard, and the history of it are quite interesting.

"The gold standard was a commitment by participating countries to fix the prices of their domestic currencies in terms of a specified amount of gold." Best internet definition I found from an econ site.
We got out of it in 1933.

The gold standard didn't work.
Neither does spending more money than you have.


cordially
ed

[Hypnotiq]

While we are talking about gold, the History Channel has a pretty cool 2 hour show that talks about Fort Knox. Pretty interesting stuff, at least to me since I didnt know a ton about it. Check it out.

[dpwracing]

Read Age of Turbulence by Greenspan. You may not agree with him on all his positions, but it will help you better understand the economic issues at hand. I have a copy if you want to borrow it. Couple of things:

1. De-regulation did not drive the economic crisis. If anything there has been much additional regulation in the last decade. In fact, a couple of regulations come to mind that played a hand in creating the economic crisis:

- The first is the community reinvigoration act - basically putting pressure on lending institutions to take on more high-risk loans.
- The second issue is mark-to-market accounting rules and deposit requirements for resulting losses. Mark-to-market exposes lending institutions to market volatility that is not reflective of the fundamental risk in the underlying assets. In other words, paper losses in the short-term that may not be real losses in the long-term.

2. CEO and other executive excess compensation - blame the board of directors of those companies, not the CEO. The boards are supposed to represent the shareholders and hold the executive team accountable. They are also responsible for ensuring appropriate risk management. The exception to this is if the boards are intentionally misled/deceived (which does happen).

3. A falling dollar is going to be painful for the US in the short-term, but I think could be good in the long-run. Imports will get more expensive, but exports will be more valuable. This would reduce our current account deficit and re-invigorate US industry.

4. Oil - yes, that's why we want the middle east to be stable (well, we also don't want their military power to grow). Yes, that's why we went to Iraq. In the US we need to drill now and drill deep - and continue to grow our strategic reserve. Development of cost-effective alternative energy sources (including nuclear!) is also very important.

5. One scary thing I'm not sure how can be fixed is containing market volatility from speculators. More regulation? Tough to put something together that doesn't create unintended consequences.

6. Protectionism such as tariffs on imported goods will only hurt the US in the long-run. To be successful the US needs to get back to strong education, strong work ethic and free itself from the entitlement mentality. Unfortunately it's really easy to appeal to those that feel they should be entitled to more even if they don't work as hard, aren't as smart and ultimately not as successful as their neighbors. Yeah, it's never their own fault, the man is keeping them down.

Enjoy.

[tarik]

How about the Tarik plan: The gub't frees up funds for the banks by buying up the good mortgages instead of the subprime crap. Modify those loans putting savings in the pockets of those who bought responsibly and making cash available for the banks that hold responsible loans. Then the responsible buyers can be the ones to make smart investments and help the economy while those that overleveraged themselves and caused this mess get a "time-out" while they recover from bankruptcy instead of a bailout that lets them repeat their mistakes at the cost of the rest of us.

[jkaiser]

Thanks Ed, you know what I mean.

[Ed Kok]

jkaiser: thanks for understanding my picking nits. i agree with your premise coupled with another view expressed here. we all need to produce. it creates wealth. how that wealth is distributed and who owns the means of production are for a different discussion. i also like the contrast between working and farting around.

warm regards
ed

[Ed Who?]

i LOVE this thread! I am NOT an expert...i KNOW BIKES...but i think its great to hear all the views and thoughts...im a HUGE sponge with anything new or something i can learn..it keeps my hyperactive brain busy...sometimes. :)

[Pat-13]

Read Age of Turbulence by Greenspan. You may not agree with him on all his positions, but it will help you better understand the economic issues at hand. I have a copy if you want to borrow it. Couple of things:

1. De-regulation did not drive the economic crisis. If anything there has been much additional regulation in the last decade. In fact, a couple of regulations come to mind that played a hand in creating the economic crisis:

- The first is the community reinvigoration act - basically putting pressure on lending institutions to take on more high-risk loans.
- The second issue is mark-to-market accounting rules and deposit requirements for resulting losses. Mark-to-market exposes lending institutions to market volatility that is not reflective of the fundamental risk in the underlying assets. In other words, paper losses in the short-term that may not be real losses in the long-term.

2. CEO and other executive excess compensation - blame the board of directors of those companies, not the CEO. The boards are supposed to represent the shareholders and hold the executive team accountable. They are also responsible for ensuring appropriate risk management. The exception to this is if the boards are intentionally misled/deceived (which does happen).

3. A falling dollar is going to be painful for the US in the short-term, but I think could be good in the long-run. Imports will get more expensive, but exports will be more valuable. This would reduce our current account deficit and re-invigorate US industry.

4. Oil - yes, that's why we want the middle east to be stable (well, we also don't want their military power to grow). Yes, that's why we went to Iraq. In the US we need to drill now and drill deep - and continue to grow our strategic reserve. Development of cost-effective alternative energy sources (including nuclear!) is also very important.

5. One scary thing I'm not sure how can be fixed is containing market volatility from speculators. More regulation? Tough to put something together that doesn't create unintended consequences.

6. Protectionism such as tariffs on imported goods will only hurt the US in the long-run. To be successful the US needs to get back to strong education, strong work ethic and free itself from the entitlement mentality. Unfortunately it's really easy to appeal to those that feel they should be entitled to more even if they don't work as hard, aren't as smart and ultimately not as successful as their neighbors. Yeah, it's never their own fault, the man is keeping them down.

Enjoy.

Absolutely 100% on the mark and efficiently stated. Thanks Dan for cutting the BS and getting right to some of the important aspects of causation. Especially pointing out the impact of mark-to-market rules and how they constrain banks flexibility unreasonably (IMO). Also your comments looking forward from this uneasiness seem to me an accurate analysis. There's a whole lot more underlying all this current turmoil than we'll find in the daily newspaper. Thanks for the clarity.

[sanfret]

Situations like these really show the value of social networking and blogging.

[EmDee]

I agree. I especially enjoyed Dan's post coming from someone who's working in the financial industry, he's got some exellent points.

Thanks Ed for your clarification on the Gold Standard. Good stuff to learn!